Okay. Good evening. The board will now convene an open meeting. Today is October 15, 2012, and the time is 640 p.m.
Katy ISD · Regular Board Meeting
Katy ISD Regular Board Meeting, October 15, 2012
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The board met earlier this evening in closed meeting. Any action arising from discussions in a closed meeting must be taken in a subsequent open meeting.
Mr. Fraley, will you verify that we are in compliance with the provisions of the Texas Open Meetings Law in regard to the notice for this meeting?
Madam President we are in compliance. First item is the property for future
school district facility development. Madam President. Mr. Adams. Move the Board of
Trustees approve the agreement to purchase from John W. Fedorko, is that
right? Yes. An approximate 9.5 acre parcel of property adjacent to the Western
property line of the Keddie High School for a total acquisition cost not to
exceed $916,197. Second. I have a motion by Dr. Mr. Adams and a second by Mr. DeBrell that the board
enter into an agreement to purchase from John W. Fedorko an approximate 9.5 acre parcel of property
adjacent to the western property line of Katy High School for a total acquisition cost
estimated not to exceed $916,197. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, we'll proceed
to vote all in favor raise your right hand and say aye aye motion passes six to zero mr griffin
is away on business next item is property for future elementary school madam president
mr mahalski i move that the board enter into an agreement to purchase from nash
cinco northwest llc an approximate 13.4 acre parcel of property within the cinco ranch
Northwest Development for a total acquisition cost estimated not to exceed
one million one hundred thirty four thousand seven hundred and twenty
dollars. Second. I have a motion by Mr. Moholsky a second by Mr. Adams that the
board enter into an agreement to purchase from Nash Cinco Northwest LLC
an approximate thirteen point four acre parcel of property within the Cinco
Ranch Northwest Development for a total acquisition cost estimated not to exceed
$1,134,720. Is there any discussion? Hearing none, we'll proceed to vote. All in favor, raise your right hand and say aye. Aye. Motion passes 6-0.
Next is an assignment and release letter regarding district-owned property.
Mr. DeBrell. I move that the board approve for execution the assignment of a release letter related to district-owned property located within Cross Creek Ranch Development as presented.
The motion by Mr. DeBrell is second by Mr. Huckabee that the board approves for execution the assignment and release letter related to district-owned property located within the Cross Creek Ranch development as presented. Any discussion?
Hearing none, we'll proceed to vote. All in favor, raise your right hand and say aye.
Aye.
Motion passes 6-0.
This is the hiring and accepting resignations of professional contractual personnel.
Mr. Huckabee?
I'd like to recommend that the board approves the personnel report as recommended by the superintendent.
Second.
The motion by Mr. Huckabee is seconded by Mr. DeBrell that the board approves the personnel report as recommended by the superintendent.
Any discussion?
Hearing none, we'll proceed to vote.
All in favor, raise your right hand and say aye.
Aye.
Motion passes 6-0.
There will be no action on item 7, level 3 appeal.
Do we have any scouts in the room this evening?
So please stand up and tell us your name and your troop number and what badge you're working on, please.
I'm Kirsten Fowler, 2-4-1-S-E.
I'm just behind 7-9 High School.
I'm from the church.
I'm working on a little trip to the community mayor's house.
I'm a student mayor of that church, and my father has a full name.
Excellent.
Glad to have you.
We'll try to have you home by midnight.
Okay.
Do you have time for consent, consideration?
Ms. Stevenson?
I brought two contracts forward for your consideration tonight.
The first is for the proposal for musical instruments and equipment.
The contract for musical instruments has been changing greatly over the last year.
The market for musical instruments has changed.
And because of that, what we're asking the board to do tonight is approve a list of qualified vendors to give us an approved vendor list from which to purchase these items.
The majority of the suppliers keep very small inventories now.
They just don't keep large supplies.
And so what we have found is that if we can do some competitive pricing at the time that we're fixing to purchase,
purchase, we will get the best value for the district and most likely obtain the instruments
in a much quicker turnaround time.
So again, the recommendation is to award all vendors that did submit proposals, they did
all qualify to be suppliers for KDISD.
This will be a one-year contract with an option for two additional one-year renewals and the
impact statement is that there's $250,000 to be spent over the next 12 months in the
budget and that there will be an additional $600,000 in expenditures for
to set up high school number seven. Any questions? Mr. Dr. Proctor. So we're
approving the expenditure of is it up to $250,000 on this for this year? Yes
sir. Actually that's already been approved in the budget. Okay. What we're
saying is that we're going to spend the money that has been allocated in the
the budget through this contract.
Okay.
Sure, we're approving the contract.
Right.
You're approving the contract.
Okay.
Okay.
The second contract I've brought forward is the proposal for the-
Ms. Stevenson, is it contract or vendor list?
Well, it's a contract with the vendors that say they are approved vendors or suppliers
for the district and that we will not add vendors during the contract period.
period.
The second contract is for soccer equipment, supplies and apparel.
And again this is a similar type thing except that we did have a small group of items where
we were able to identify those that will be universally used at all of our campuses.
So the recommendation is to award the lowest priced items, meeting specifications with
the following exceptions.
Line five, which was a quick goal net.
We awarded two items to give the coaches a chance to choose between the two products.
Some prefer one over the other, and this would give them an opportunity to use their budget in the way they would like to.
And line items 6 and 7, the Quick Go Soccer Scorebook, we're recommending that the award go to Barcelona Sporting Goods,
and it's for the reason listed on your proposal evaluation.
evaluation. Online items 8, 9, and 10, which are discounts, again, we're recommending that all of the vendors submitting be awarded. This will give us an approved vendor list from which we can do pricing to obtain best value when we are purchasing items that are not on the list. And this is a one-year contract with an option for two additional one-year renewals. And we are estimating expenditures at $70,000 over the next 12 months. And there are two local vendors on this particular contract.
Thank you, Mrs. Stevenson.
Next we were going to have a discussion about funding for campus pedestrian and bicycle
improvements.
Hi, Mrs. McDonald.
Mr. Brimmer.
Good evening, Superintendent Fraley, President Fox, and members of the board.
Tonight we come before you with one agenda item, and that's for funding for campus pedestrian
and bicycle improvements.
improvements. As a result of the changes in the transportation eligibility, there's been
several access improvement needs that have been identified since we last saw you. These
needs result directly from the increased number of car riders and students riding their bikes
and walking to school. Some of the requests we've had are for gates, walk-through and
drive-through, sidewalks, signs, speed bumps, bike racks, and lighting. We expect
that there will even be even more projects that are identified in the
coming months and so these are not really part of the general or regular
maintenance so therefore we request special project funding. The total amount
we were requesting is $250,000. This includes $130,000
for general mobility improvements and $120,000 for lighting improvements.
This funding would be provided from the general fund,
and it would help to improve the safety of students walking
and riding their bicycles to school
and ensure safe and efficient vehicle passage in school zones.
So we would like to recommend that the Board of Trustees
authorize special project funding in the amount of $250,000.
And John and I are open for any questions you might have.
No questions? Any, let's move it to consent. Any objections to moving it to consent?
Thank you very much for bringing that forward.
Next, Mrs. Jinks, I think is going to talk to us about limited English proficient enrollment and bilingual exception application.
Good evening. We're glad you're here.
We're here to talk about two items this evening.
The first one is the number of English language proficiency students that we have identified
in KDISD for the 2012-13 school year.
Each year is required by our Texas Education Code 29053, 054, and 063.
three district personnel must provide the school board with the number of
English language proficiency students that have been identified and according
to our report on October the 8th 2012 the limited English proficient report
indicates that we have identified a total of eight thousand six hundred
ninety seven left students in the district we've also provided you with
the information the attachments with the number of students per campus per grade
level. Additionally, each year we come to around this time and we talk about the
number of students in a particular grade level district-wide. So when a district
identifies 20 students in a given grade level across the district, we are
required to provide either a bilingual or a special program for these students.
And we have six languages for which we qualify for a bilingual exception,
and these languages are Mandarin Chinese Arabic Urdu Vietnamese Korean and this
year we have a new language where we have 20 or more identified at a given
grade level across the district which is Filipino Tagalog we will file this TEA
application on it before November the 1st and in this application we will
will include a description of how the district will provide instructional support to the
elementary campuses for students who've been identified who speak these languages.
This is the 11th year that we're applying for the bilingual exception for Mandarin Chinese,
the 9th year for Arabic, Urdu, and Vietnamese, the 6th year for Korean bilingual, and of
course this is the first year for Filipino Tagalog.
A percentage of our bilingual education allotment is also used to provide training to our certified
teachers.
And some of the training that we provide is the Texas ESL certification for general education
teachers.
We also provide the ELPAC training, the Language Proficiency Assessment Committee training,
as well as TELPAS, State Texas English Language Proficiency Assessment System, and training
on the ELPS, the English Language Proficiency Standards.
standards. So in our impact statement, it says based on the district language report
generated on October the 8th, 2012, KDISD is required to offer bilingual program in
the following languages, Mandarin, Chinese, Arabic, Urdu, Vietnamese, Korean, and Filipino,
Tagalog. Approval of the bilingual exception application by TEA will allow the district
to utilize alternate methods to serve these students.
So it is recommended that the board grant approval for the superintendent
to prepare, sign, and submit the 2012-13 bilingual education exception application.
Are there any questions?
Madam President.
Dr. Proctor.
Just I'm a little confused by the language.
It says we're applying for an exception,
exception, but what we're really going to do is find methods to teach these students.
That is correct. So we'll provide...
What does the exception then mean?
Well, we provide instructional support through our ESOL instructional support specialty teachers that we have at each campus.
They go in and provide support, as well as where we have a highly concentrated population of students who speak a given language.
language, we also hire paraprofessionals who speak those languages so they are able to
provide instructional support in that native language if it's required.
Okay.
And our exception is that we are asking an exception to a full bilingual program in the
same manner that we have a Spanish-English bilingual program.
We're going to do alternate methods with these six languages.
Okay.
So this is an exception where it's not a full program?
Absolutely.
Okay.
That's what was...
with two to okay so the only true bilingual education program we have pre
K through five is for our Spanish speakers okay thank you any other
questions any objection to moving this to consent okay mrs. jinx forgive me for
not asking when you sat down would you introduce your partner with you this is
Linda Shepherd and she's the officer from an elementary ESOL mrs. Shepherd
it's nice to have you here thank you all for coming okay next we're going to talk
about additional staffing units for crossing guards we just talked about
this last time but we're going to talk about it again mr. Fraley dr. Harris
isn't here well basically this is up some more routes have been identified
than we could put crossing guards at within school zones and in response to
meetings we've had with some with community folks and and with principal
request so I think there are eight units being requested at this time additional
use being requested this time response to enlarging or expanding some of our
schools on not really expanding the schools on I believe it's like some is
expanding some of them when we can well yes school zones at Holland Elementary
Elementary School and Griffin Elementary School
have been expanded to include crosswalks that
were very, very near the school.
Oh, and one at Wood Creek Elementary.
Those crosswalks were basically adjacent
to where the beginning of the school zone was.
But because they weren't in the school zone,
we couldn't put a guard there.
And so those are about half of the requested guards.
The other ones are mostly for areas where we identified crosswalks, either that principals hadn't told us that needed a crossing guard or where we're expanding the hours for an uncontrolled crosswalk in an elementary school zone that's used by secondary students.
So those are kind of the framework of what we're asking for.
Mr. Adams.
Just a clarification from me, please.
Is the school zone, expanding the school zone, is that done by code,
or can we just expand the school zones as we see fit, or how do we do that?
We requested two of those from Fort Bend County for Holland and Griffin
and from the city of Katy for Wood Creek,
and those are in the works with those jurisdictions.
jurisdictions. So the jurisdiction actually controls where the school zone begins and
ends.
Mr. Maholsky.
Since this is the second consecutive month that we've seen, you know, this come before
us for additional staffing units here, is this something we should continue to anticipate
moving forward as we maybe identify additional areas or where do we think we are on that
process?
I would not anticipate that we'll be coming back for additional in the near future.
We were pretty comprehensive in our review this time around, and again, those expansions were expansions that were moved further along in the process between the last Board meeting and this Board meeting.
Okay. So do we not have any pending expansions out there right now?
None that I'm aware of.
Okay. Thank you. Mr. Bremer, will you be sure to communicate this to our community,
the entire community, that we continue to improve the traffic patterns and the safety of our
children? Yes, we'll continue to work with Steve Stanford and his group to get the word out. Okay,
great. Any other questions? Any objection to moving this to consent? No. So moved.
Thank you. Budget amendments. Mr. Smith. Good evening. The October budget
amendments presented before you all are part of the general operating fund, are
they are affected by the general operating fund. In that the expenditures
increased twenty thousand twenty seven thousand six hundred dollars for COLA,
That's the KD Online Learning Program.
They increased $66,750 to fund the salary and benefits associated with the additional
crossing guards approved by the Board last month.
And this does already include expenditures for the $250,000 to fund safety-related projects
that Ms. McDonald presented to you earlier tonight.
The remaining amendments are offsets between functions, and adding them all up, the approval
of these does increase expenditures about three hundred forty four thousand
five hundred dollars any questions for mr. Smith about the budget any objection
to moving it to consent so moved okay we do have an action item for this evening
It's a resolution for bus driver appreciation week, and we will take action on this because of the date of the bus driver appreciation happens before we reconvene.
Mr. DeBrell.
I move that the board approve the resolution for bus driver appreciation week that you are about to read.
Second.
I have a motion by Mr. DeBrell, a second by Dr. Proctor, that the board approve the resolution for bus driver appreciation week that reads.
Resolution of the KD Board of Trustees. Whereas school bus drivers consistently
put the safety of our children first, maintaining an awareness of student
needs, school bus routes, mechanical issues, traffic and weather conditions,
and whereas school bus drivers face many driving perils both natural and unnatural
while conducting their daily duties, and whereas school bus drivers consistently
consistently exhibit patience and kindness towards students, parents, and school staff
in the faithful and dedicated performance of their responsibilities and, whereas school
bus drivers have collectively built a remarkable and exemplary record of safety by driving
for hundreds and thousands of miles year after year.
Therefore, it is hereby resolved that the Katy ISD Board of Trustees officially recognizes
all bus drivers for their continued excellent services to the youth of Katy
ISD by declaring October 15th through 19th 2012 as school bus driver
appreciation week in Katy ISD signed this 15th day of October 2012 I have a
question I think the national the school bus driver appreciation week is not this
week it's the next week those dates need to change from the 22nd let me look at
my calendar it should read 22 to 26
therefore it is hereby resolved that the KDISD Board of Trustees officially
recognizes all bus drivers for the continued excellent services to the
youth of Katy ISD by declaring October 22 through 26 2012 as school bus driver
appreciation week in Katy ISD sign this 15th day of October 2012 Rebecca Fox
president Katy ISD Board of Trustees
Any discussion or questions?
Mr. Michalski?
Would it be possible to, and I know next week is the bus driver appreciation week, but would it be possible maybe to get this resolution framed and presented at the regular meeting in two weeks that I think could be displayed at the transportation center?
Consider it done.
Okay.
So we'll have a frame presented to the rep at this month's regular meeting.
Right.
Then they'll expect, correct.
I said this to my staff in the back, and here's what they volunteered to do, right?
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Okay.
All in favor, raise your right hand and say aye.
Aye.
Aye.
Motion passes six to zero.
Happy bus driver week.
Six to zero.
Okay, future meetings.
Oh no, we have discussion.
Discussion.
Sorry.
That's what I get for taking my glasses off.
Okay.
So our first discussion item is facility naming guidelines.
guidelines. We have a new high school coming open in August, so it's time to consider naming
this facility. Mr. Fraley?
Madam President, in your board policy CW Local, the board states the board shall have complete
authority and responsibility for the permanent naming of district facilities. A practice
that was established here in 2011 was the board can either name it themselves or they
can have the superintendent appoint a committee to review it, and the guidelines in terms
in your policy CW local what we've done in the past is you've had the
superintendent form a committee the board president will appoint two
trustees excuse me to that committee we have residents from the ten zones of the
facility to interact and be part of that recommendation to the board but the
final authority is rest with the board of trustees just a process that allows
the committee to review names that are submitted in response to the facility
being named at that particular time.
So I just need to know if you want to have a committee form this time
like we've done the past two times or do something different.
Okay, discussion.
Mr. Huckabee.
I would like for it to be something that the board itself would do.
I mean, that's my preference.
I don't know about everyone else.
Mr. DeBrell.
I had the opportunity, the privilege should I say, to serve on the committee last year.
We named the four new schools that came online this year.
And I think the process was very valuable in engaging our community in the process,
the stakeholders, the parents of students who will attend, the new principal that will
be named.
I would like to see us continue with that process.
Maybe if there's some desires that we have as a board to expand some of the guidelines,
guidelines, we can discuss some of those things, but I think engaging the community in that
process is very valuable.
Dr. Proctor?
I agree with Mr. Dubrell.
I think we need to get people involved in the area about this.
One, can I raise a concern that I have about the-
Certainly.
our rule, whatever.
What?
Policy.
Our policies.
Thank you very much.
Okay, just catching up with me.
You know, we don't have,
and maybe this is my own bias,
high schools, no pun intended,
are big deals.
They're big facilities.
They're there for a long time.
and you know look looking around I would like us to have some way if the
community wants and if we want to name it after them after historic Texas
figures thinking about people in history who have who have come from Texas who
have made a great contribution to our country because the high school is gonna
be for a long time and you can say this is X high school this is Y high school
one and I'm not pushing this but Texas is remiss and taking credit for Dwight
Eisenhower being the first Texas born president of the United States we let
that Kansas take all of that.
And I'm not saying name this Dwight Eisenhower,
but we have a lot of historic figures in Texas.
And I'd like that at least to be thrown into the mix
so that when students 10 years say, oh, yeah,
I learned about such and such, or I know about such and such.
Not to say that we're going to do that, but just to allow that.
I appreciate that, Dr. Proctor.
we have that provision provided in our naming committee where it can be named after historic
figures we absolutely or a geographic area a facility or portion of a facility may be named
for a person in honor of an historic event or place a subdivision or geographic area
or for a major donor so we have those those in place and we also have a process online of how
to submit names to the committee they're all collected here and then the
committee has given the names to review and that committee will be okay well I
know for that I probably misinterpreted no for those four new elementary schools
it was very exhaustive procedure that took them more than one day to really
bring all that together and mr. Huckabee I like what you say about having the
board do it and I do too but the difficulty in doing that is because we
We are governed, as everyone well knows, by the Open Meetings Act,
and we can't talk about it outside of a public meeting.
And when you are considering naming facilities after people and families,
discussing those names in public can be a very difficult thing to do to honor families,
and then you bring families' names into it and those who are chosen and those who aren't,
And that's why we, the board, wrote this policy to give that opportunity to the, again, to give ownership to the communities and then to give them the opportunity to do that.
Well, I think what I was imposing was misconstrued.
I wanted the final naming rights to be decided by the board.
Oh, it absolutely is.
We're given two names and then we choose from them.
I mean, I want the board to be a part of the process.
I mean, that is a responsibility of the board,
and I think that's a privilege of the board of being part of it.
And so I wasn't trying to prevent there from being any input from the community.
I just wanted the decision to be made wholly by the board.
And the board shall have complete authority and responsibility
for the permanent naming of district facilities.
So we're not giving away our authority or responsibility, just help from the community
to bring this recommendation.
Mr. DeBrell.
I think after being through the process, it might be helpful as we get into the naming
of a new high school, and I agree with Dr. Proctor, it's a pretty big deal when you name
a high school.
A little side note, I had a friend of mine, DeCaney High School, Andy DeCaney, longtime
time friend passed away with cancer and when I saw the Caney high school when
is the championship last year that was very special because Andy meant
something to me so name it of a high school is a huge deal I think prior to
that committee being formed we need to have a discussion as to what our
expectations are I know traditionally we have schools named after certain
locations seven lakes single ranch May Creek we only have one school really
named after an individual I'm not opposed to that and I think that's some
of the direction and input we need to give to that committee as to what are
our desires with this new high school and begin to set the precedent as we
move forward with that
I would like to ask the superintendent to begin with the committee.
So if we have feelings about that, we need to do it now.
I would ask also that the board president appoints board members to the committee.
And so you can bring forth the thoughts of the board.
I think if you put tight parameters now, then you more or less kill the committee process.
You kill the involvement process.
I think each of you can contact either the board president or me, I guess whatever the law allows,
and just kind of state what you'd like for us to consider.
And no matter what the committee recommends, if the board wants it, they vote for it.
If the board does not, then the board does not accept it.
And we go back and start the process again.
So the board will have the authority to say yea or nay to the name that the committee recommends.
If there is a preference, again, your guidelines are permissive in that you have lots of latitude.
So if the board would rather we look at a name of a person, then they could say that,
but again, it may knock out some of the community input through the committee process.
Great.
Great.
Okay, so we're in agreement.
Let the committee go through the process and bring us recommendations.
According to policy, Mr. Superintendent, would you please begin that process of the naming committee?
And in that same vein, the board has been petitioned to name part of a facility,
a very specific part of a facility after a retired employee.
one employee one facility would this board like that to go we have a
provision for that in our guidelines that we can send that to a committee but
it's a may send it to a committee so we have we can retain the rights to do that
here would you rather see it as an agenda item or would you rather send it
to the committee to review the name and the facility and have them bring a
recommendation to us
Madam President, it might be good, someone came and spoke in open forum to the Board
about this specifically.
And because it's a name, until we know the process, we don't really want to put the name
out from the Board, but this was presented to the Board petition-wise in open forum.
We since have gotten written communication as well.
Have any questions, please give me a call.
I guess I'm kind of lost here.
I mean, of course.
So you've got a facility, some facility in the district that is part of another facility,
and we're looking to figure out how to name after a retired employee.
Is that what you're saying?
It's kind of a stretch to ask you to kind of play back every meeting you've had in the past six months.
But someone came and stood before you and said they would like to have this certain athletic facility
named after a former coach at that particular location.
I remember part of it.
I don't remember.
So you may not be ready to make a decision tonight.
You can do this Monday night.
If you have a question about particulars, again, out of respect for Mrs. Fox,
box that showed earlier about a person's name.
It was shared publicly, but I don't want to get you all
in a corner discussing it right now. So if you have a question about it
between now and then, great, and then you can make your decision
in direction to me on Monday the 29th. Would that be a better
process? Yeah, I think so.
I'll await your phone call. But this is not a situation
to where the school where this name or this facility is has already got the
wheels rolling as we have in the past where they've jumped the gun a little
bit actually they have done the proper way they've come before the board first
before they made their decision and just then ask us to pick for the sign and
just didn't want to back this board into a corner and that's why I don't want to
give the name out now any more detail right now because you'll start getting
lobbied over the weekend all right by those who just kind of just aren't heard about it so so
please give me a call and we can give you the information that you can give and then we discuss
it publicly openly the process on the 29th and i also would uh wonder if it would be possible
for the communications department or someone to maybe send out a communicate to the community
listing how to name facilities as we're entering into this facility naming process that we just
just notify the community it's coming up and then we they know what the processes
are and everyone has been included and know it's coming what we would do madam
president in response to that is since you've directed me to form a committee
to begin that process of solicit of accepting names will communicate out
that name the door the timeline is open to begin submitting names thank you
Thank you, ma'am.
Okay, good.
Our next discussion item, weighted grade point average as it applies to dual credit courses.
And we have the EIC and course catalog reference here for us.
Dr. Proctor, you want to begin?
Yes, I asked to bring this up at the TASB meeting.
meeting, we had an amendment to courses that, on their own,
would be exempt from end-of-course exams.
And we included, and it passed overwhelmingly, dual credit.
And I'm a huge advocate for dual credit.
It's a way to get students college credit right now.
And you can say what you want about college courses being the same.
I can guarantee you that if you walk in two different classes at one university teaching the same course,
they're not going to be identical.
And one of the best ways to get our students involved in thinking about going to college
is to have the same incentive there as you do for AP.
So I would like to see us entertain moving dual credit to the same status as advanced
placement.
And the other rationale, and I won't bore you, I did a 1999 study of this.
You can look up.
It's old, but it's valid.
The two-year IB high school program, the two-year program, advanced placement and dual credit are all called acceleration mechanisms.
mechanisms. The difference is the IB, I believe it's sophomore and junior program, AP, regardless
of what grades you get in those classes, you don't necessarily get college credit. Dual
HCC and Lone Star and those credits transfer and if we want to we can look
credit by credit in what courses do those transfer to Texas and Texas A&M
and I would think those are pretty reputable institutions if they're taking
those actually AP is kind of a wild shoot if you're talking about public
and private and this and that. Some have different cutoff scores even if you pass.
I know one time a long time ago I was talking, I was at Harvard, and they'll take your AP courses as long as you give them five that you have four, fours in.
in if you have fours that you have fours in they'll say that's too bad you're not smart enough
because you didn't get five so you know there's some quirky things there and i would like to see
us move to dual enrollment having that extra quality point because it is a collegiate level
course
Madam President.
Mr. DeBrell.
When I saw this appear on the agenda, I did a little personal survey, not scientific by
any means.
It was just the kids in the DeBrell household.
And I asked them the question about rigor.
I do have one student that's taken a number of AP and pre-AP courses, and I know that
he is he's in pre AP precalculus as one of the courses and daddy can't help him
at all and he's up late very late studying and trying to get all the work
done it's a very rigorous curriculum and I asked the kids I just said hey if your
friends or the class that you've taken that are dual credit or they as rigorous
And he said no.
And I couldn't see us awarding that five points for an A in a course that's not as rigorous
when they are already getting the dual credit.
They're already getting something for taking that course.
I believe many students who are just looking to get their higher GPA may migrate to dual
credit away from AP and away from the rigor.
I think we should encourage the rigor.
although I might I'm like you I'm a huge fan of dual credit I think it is
wonderful but uh added that adding that extra weight to a course that's not
quite as rigorous I just uh don't see how we could do that may I respond let
me see go ahead Dr. Proctor I don't know if you were comparing apples and apples
I can tell you I offered a collegiate level calculus class at a high school
and even though they had 18 weeks and they met five hours a day five days a
week as opposed to 16 weeks an hour three times a week they had one heck of
of a time. We quit offering it because the rigor was too much in the compressed time frame.
I would say if you're taking a calculus course that transfers to Texas A&M, that's going to have rigor.
Or Texas A&M is not going to take that course.
And again, I can point to empirical data on that if you want.
you know it's it's a and I'll be blunt it's a traditional slam on community
colleges because they're not viewed as having the rigor when you get in the
high-level courses that count towards college they have the rigor that college
is looking for and the the state wants you post-secondary ready if you go and
take a college English class and you pass it you are college ready if you
take an AP class but don't pass the test they're going to give you a test at a
a community college to see if you qualify
for their regular english class and that's just the way the world works
justin
so uh... like
mister bro i've also done some unscientific polling in the
muskie household
i currently have my twin daughters are actually at seven lights right now and
actually are enrolled in both a dual credit class and a couple of AP classes.
And I'm kind of torn here because I do see the point on the difference somewhat in the rigor,
but I'm also a huge proponent of the dual credit.
I do believe that bringing that college professor into our high school does play a role
in helping our students prepare for college.
I like what I've heard from my daughters about that course and just kind of the way it's more of a lecture course and taking notes and they're tested off of that more like they will be in a traditional college atmosphere.
So I do think we should definitely promote that because I do from a readiness standpoint, I do believe in it.
Whether or not it should get the extra grade point, wow.
Wow, like I said, I'm kind of caught right in the middle
of this one, and I'm not sure.
What I don't want to see happen is it de-incentivize kids
that may want to take a dual credit course because they're
not, because they may slip in their grade point
average because of it.
So I don't want to see that happen.
But at the same time, I think there
There is something to the argument on the rigor side as well.
So that's not helpful probably for the debate.
But go ahead.
No, excuse me.
Mrs. Fox's unscientific experiment.
Also both our children had both courses, dual credit and AP, and not so long ago, a couple
years out.
and the you cannot compare the rigor between dual credit and AP in KTISD and
our children went to different high schools so there's a broad spectrum here
of not not just the same teacher the there's just no comparison to the rigor
they're also as I understand it a concern that if we were my concern about
giving the extra point to dual credit is because of the shortage of teachers that
we have for dual credit and the dual credit is governed by HCC which our
partnership with them and they require now I'm speaking off the top of my head
so we might have to ask for the administration to bring real statistics
next week but the you have to have a master's in the field either a master's
in history or a master's in science or a master's in math in order to if we use
one of our teachers to teach the dual credit class because HCC does not have
enough teachers to send us for all the children who want to take dual credit
now if we were to give an extra point for HCC dual credit then we would have
an increased certainly an increase enrollment and I'm not sure that we
could serve all our children number one the rigor is certainly a difference
there and but I love dual credit and I want very much for our students to know
they have that opportunity and it's the hook for college right it's like I'm
leaving with college credit of course I'm going to college I'm already a
college student so I'm all about dual credit I just don't know that I can
agree with a full extra quality point
mr. Fraley just a quick clarification there you're raising some great points
there and I guess that fast staff all of our dual credit instructors are not
provided by the university correct or the college okay so some are and some
Some are not.
And I know we have had this issue with HCC and they've been great partners.
They're a great partner.
They really are.
Again, it is capacity.
It's having enough professors.
They have fiscal constraints like we have.
Then we have hiring constraints because if we start hiring only folks with a master's
degree so we can facilitate dual credit, there's a much smaller pool.
And if we increase demand, then that becomes a challenge.
and I'm not I don't have a bias one way or the other it's just the fact is that
right now there's a challenge of staffing dual credit courses
Madam President Mr. Huckabee
well I got several different points on it where I would say that I would want
that I would prefer to have it and one I know that the pre AP and AP courses are
money course for the district because of the test and having to pay for the test
the because I know they try to sign every one of them up they can to make money off of the test the
the but the pre AP course isn't taught by a college professor either it's taught by a regular teacher
and so to lean one way or the other I mean I watch our pre AP classes and I watch our dual credit
classes and to be honest with you the dual credit classes are doing more of
what's going to be done in college than the pre AP the pre AP is a lot of pardon
song and dance in my book it's a lot of projects there's a lot of fluff stuff to
try to make up big things and and and I've just never been that great of a
proponent of it because it's more of a class thing and in the fact that you
you're rolling the dice you take it and you don't pass the test you don't get
the points whereas you know dual credit you're going to be taking the class
you're going to the rigor of that class is going to be above the normal class
normal academics and and you're going to be also preparing to enter into
college you know I've watched both of them for a long time I as a
teacher of 20 years I'm not really that big of a fan of pre AP and AP because I
look at the curriculum I mean I'm right there looking at the curriculum and I
look what they do to differentiate the curriculum to extend it and enrich it
and it goes back to junior high in my book junior high honors classes where
you get an extra assignment to do above everybody else you know yeah they're
getting a dual they're getting a credit for college and some people say oh
you're double dipping you're giving my credit for college and you're giving them a point
you know we have the same problem with ap teachers as we do uh dual credit we don't have that many
of them you know and for if we can incentivize our kids to be to walk out of the school in may
or june first week of june and already have uh their basics our kids are going to do much better
when they get to the college than they are if they've only done pre AP and then
when they get get if they fail it then they have to go take the remedial test
at the at the college to see if they can get it now the college is getting money
for the test instead of the district getting money for the test that's that's
just my opinion on I mean that's from watching it and and listening to it and
over 20 years.
There's a cost associated with the dual credit class, though.
Right.
That you have to pay for the AP test,
which is not a very big expense
compared to how much college credit you get
and what money parents are saving at college.
So both are great cost savings to our parents
when their kids go off to college,
and you have to pay for that dual credit class,
and it's not an automatic college credit.
You have to pass the course
and do well in the course in order to get the credit. Mr. Fraley. Madam President.
I've been asked Dr. Proctor to wait. Go ahead Dr. Proctor. Yeah the
requirements to teach and I'm not saying if we don't have the teachers let's not
teach it. You know that's a given. You know I used to have to prepare staffing
for community college and if we didn't have the staff we didn't teach it. I mean
that was just kind of too bad but the requirements to teach a dual credit
course you have to have a master's degree and 18 hours in that specific
subject area at the graduate level so you know it is you have a rigorous
instructor AP I don't believe you have those same requirements so you really
have a specialist and even when and I was at the set an association meeting
when they changed this and universities went ballistic over it they required
required even adjuncts or what some people call TAs to have a master's degree in 18 hours
in the area before they could teach college level courses.
Universities just used to throw in people with master's degrees or working or just finished
a master's degree in the area and maybe not 18 hours.
So I would say the qualifications of the instructor in a dual credit class either meet, and I'm not demeaning AP, because I think that's a great program too, meet or exceed those of AP teachers.
And I've actually taught some dual enrollment classes.
Need a job?
No.
You might need to polish your resume, Mr. DeBrell.
i think we can all agree that both of these programs for great
and that they are
things that we both support
uh... i think at the end of the day we have to compare apples to apples and
oranges to oranges
uh... not fighting the
calculus class that you taught
my question would be
is
a calculus class
a people pre p
uh... the same rigor as a calculus class
that is
do credit
because if you're because I know one thing a business mathematics class is
not the same rigor as calculus if you're looking for college credit so I think
just going across the board and giving every dual credit course the same weight
as a pre AP or AP course we still have to look at the rigor and I can't get
away from what my kids say when two honest high school students say it's
it's not the same because they have friends who do the homework and they
know that they're up later and they're working hard
mr. Mahal okay but to play devil's advocate if you're gonna make that
comparison dual credit versus pre AP and AP what about dual credit versus
academic because right now dual credit is more rigorous than academic and I
think that's great that's why we should encourage more students to take the dual
credit. How we go about that, is it adding an extra point? Is it adding a half a point?
Is it making parents more aware of the benefit? I don't know the answer to that, but I think
we need to award the rigor as far as that's concerned.
Madam President.
Mr. Mahalsky, did you get your answer there?
That's fine.
Go ahead.
No, I would agree with Henry.
We ought to pick the collegiate level core courses, the core courses.
If it's college algebra, fine.
I would not be in favor of, and there are a lot of courses that community colleges teach that are not,
But therefore, the Associate in Science and the Associate in Applied Science courses,
those are not the courses that I'm talking about.
You know, I'm talking about the ones in each state has their own classification system.
I'm used to what's called the Associate of Arts degree, which is a fully transferable degree.
The rigor in all of those courses.
I mean if you want somebody to be a business major you have them take
college calculus at a community college and that makes them a business major
really fast.
Mr. Mihulski said about the academic versus the dual credit I think
that's a valid point we talked about that during our planning session what is
is in the middle there between AP, pre-AP, and regular academic.
If the answer is expanding our dual credit, then yes,
because we do need something in the middle there.
But again, I think we need some more information
before we give just a broad sweeping added weight
to dual credit.
Mr. Frazier.
Mr. President, I know that staff is back there probably
chomping at the bits and whatnot.
and I won't put them on the spot right now, but I know there were conversations about six years or so ago, extensive conversations about this very issue.
And the staff recommendation at that time was not to do the wholesale weighted grade for the dual credit courses.
Then you throw in the accountability system in the course exams were there.
And then you throw in if it's not going to be a blanket, then we're talking about an annual board approval of certain courses.
and there's a process for that as well.
So it's more than just a notion.
So the question is,
does staff begin doing the work
to bring forth the recommendation
or does the board need to have more discussion about it?
And I would rather have a little more discussion,
a little more thought about it
before we start getting to where staff
is doing some work in this area.
But I know staff would love to have a chance
to tell me how they feel about it.
And I'll give you all the chance
at one of our upcoming meetings, okay?
One thing I would like to see is,
certainly we've all heard that dual credit
has great support from our board.
Is that what I think I'm hearing here?
And I know that not all schools,
all of our high schools view it the same way,
and more opportunities for students
is what would be a great thing to communicate
to every high school.
This board values that.
And so those opportunities should be offered and encouraged and not be seen as something
less desirable, but equally desirable to AP.
Something else.
And I really would like us to look at this more comprehensively than just have an idea
I want to add more weights.
But look at it, when we talk about our overall product line, overall offerings, I'd like
to look at all of it together so we can also address the issue of the non-pre-AP and then
just what we call the academic student because we have an obligation to all of our students,
no matter what level you're taking, let's be prepared at a certain level.
And I'm not certain that we've really answered that question yet, so I'd like to have a more
comprehensive look at our overall curricular offerings and discuss rigor, discuss that
age-old question about what about the kids in the middle?
The kids in the middle.
Chair?
So I would love to do that and maybe have this more comprehensively.
It's going to take a little time, but I think it's time well spent.
Madam President.
Madam President.
Mr. DeBrell.
On that note, would it be a, I don't want to say a good exercise,
but something good for us to do is to have staff look at the totality of all of our courses
and how we increase our overall rigor and deliver the best product to all of our students
and put some of these things in the mix rather than just pull out this one piece.
Is that something that I'm sure they're excited about that or not?
We do that all the time.
Sure.
Dr. Proctor?
I think we're not under the gun to change this now.
Right.
That's why I brought this forward now instead of during course selection.
We ought to be looking for next year to have an answer.
And, you know, I would like to spend the time, and rather than just bring anecdotal evidence, I'll be glad to bring you.
I'll be glad on my own to do all the research you want on these topics.
And, you know, they have pros and cons, agreed.
College to college has pros and cons with the same course.
but again at the end of the day if you say it has the rigor to get you a degree from A&M I would say
it's a pretty rigorous course so yes let's continue the dialogue we don't need to push
for an answer right now because we're not going to change horses in the middle of this academic
extreme right now but I think it's a I think it's a good discussion that we
ought to have. Madam President if I could offer I think that as the board
considers the ongoing goal-setting process that this would be one of the
things that we put in our overall plan and have also some some steps that may
involve some site visits bringing in some expert testimony and doing some
some research as a collective because i think it is time that we do look at revisiting our
overall curricular offerings i think this is an excellent opportunity to do that versus just
an ad hoc kind of thing i think this requires some great thoughtful and perspective perspectives and
introspection uh have chance for public input from our community as well we have a lot of
talented families who come here on purpose so we don't want to just undo what they came here for
without them have some chance to have a little input as well so i look forward to uh
to this work. I'm glad it came up.
Mr. Adams.
Dr. Proctor was the one that actually did the
amendment to the
TASB as far as
putting the end of course examination for dual credit
and I applaud him for doing
that. And it did
pass overwhelmingly.
And I
think that you touched
on something, I guess what I was going to say
Mr. Frady, was the fact is that
that is not to make well just not to look at this in a vacuum there's that we
need to to look at what other districts and best best practices about this
because I think and not mr. dr. Proctor you're you're a big advocate of best
practices and what other other districts do successfully so I think that that we
We need to look at that from all areas about that.
Any other discussion?
Okay, let me.
Thank you very much.
I appreciate the discussion and the work of this board.
Our future meetings, October 23rd, we'll have a board workshop in this room.
October 24th, please, I hope the community will join us for the exchange.
Our board taking the conversation to the public.
and we will be meeting back here for our regular board meeting on October 29th.
Having no further business this meeting is adjourned 745.
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